Webcomics are HOT, baby. And yet, they are as cool as the underside of the pillow. Good comics are hot no matter whether they are on the web or in print. I like both formats.
Greg Carter - Abandon: First Vampire - Online Graphic Novel
My answer to this is purely existential. Yes, they are hot, as they are significant in my tiny bubble of a world. It seems more manegable than fleeting things like job, family, school. And for every comic that's missing or late, we have plenny off buzzing on the forums to keep us up until well past the effects of caffeine have worn off.
And as long as there's just one of us putting out a comics, they aint going away. Consider this, webcomics may have already outlived those print comic companies like Defiant, Malibu, Valiant, and Crossgen? Heh.
[quote:956987c52e="GregC"]Popularity means squat. Quality is hot.
Then comes the next question: just what is quality?
That question can't really be answered...it always comes down to a popularity vote, i.e. lists of the best, and even those can't be seen as quality by everyone.
Just seems to me to be one cyclic question, over and over, that'll really never be truly answered. Tho it really can be debated, argued, and flamed forever and a day.
The question can be answered. People just tend to not like whatever answers are given. Sometimes because they have bad taste. Other times it is because of the opposite. Other times it is both or neither!<br><br><br>Also, I voted "not" a few days ago because there aren't enough quality webcomics.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
[quote:b39c1eb5e8="rezo"]The question can be answered. People just tend to not like whatever answers are given. Sometimes because they have bad taste. Other times it is because of the opposite. Other times it is both or neither!<br><br><br>Also, I voted "not" a few days ago because there aren't enough quality webcomics.
I agree. Yes, quality is certainly measurable. We're just too polite to discuss it here.
Truth is, I think Mr. William G was on to something with "Honest Webcomic Reviews" even if it didn't last. We don't benefit as artists to only hear good things about our comics. Folks who don't like our stuff simply don't read, so we seldom hear honest criticism.
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder. A comic either works for a reader or it doesn't. How high it would be graded in an art or writing class affects that but isn't the final word. Honest effort and being able to get the point across in an entertaining manner is what matters to me. But then I love Jackson Pollock's work so what the hell do I know? See? Eye of the beholder.
Art is subjective (art in this case encompasses the whole effort). There are no absolute facts involved in describing it except for the basic physical parameters. And sometimes not even that. It is a singular experience unique to the viewer/reader. And to tie this into the big "review/criticism" debate, no single review has any more or less merit than any other. Only when someone expresses a somewhat consistent opinion of similar items do those gain any value to a person reading them. Then that reader can compare their own opinions to that of the critic and make a reasonable assumption about how they will agree with future reviews. And that's all I'm saying about that.
I have to admit, I'm really digging the Megatokyo storyline at the moment. And Fred has tightened up his art quite a bit lately. It is far and away my favorite of the "big" webcomics.
Greg Carter - Abandon: First Vampire - Online Graphic Novel
[quote:c0c00bdf3e="Fabricari"]
Truth is, I think Mr. William G was on to something with "Honest Webcomic Reviews" even if it didn't last. We don't benefit as artists to only hear good things about our comics. Folks who don't like our stuff simply don't read, so we seldom hear honest criticism.
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving. Purely negative reviews are just as bad as purely positive reviews.
[quote:49a4e6689c="Fabricari"]
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
I think the savage dissembly group does something very like this. Can't recall the URL right now but I think it's an email group for webcomics to get and give each other feedback. Way back in the day there was a similar effort called Hotseat.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
Not in a smoking hot sex-pot blonde bombshell kinda way, but in that smartly-dressed, Lisa-Loeb-glasses-wearing, mousy-girl kinda way.
I think the latter is hotter anyway.
And yes Savage Disassembly is your one-stop shop for being totally pantsed on the internet. It's a group thing so you can join up and rip and be ripped.
Tim Demeter
does a bunch of neato stuff.
Clickwheel
GraphicSmash
Bustout Odds
Not in a smoking hot sex-pot blonde bombshell kinda way, but in that smartly-dressed, Lisa-Loeb-glasses-wearing, mousy-girl kinda way.
I think the latter is hotter anyway.
Webcomics is hotter like f-35, which is more sleathier, sexy, and totally much more dangerous than the lame old school last generation which is print comics and the boring f-16. :roll:
I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving. Purely negative reviews are just as bad as purely positive reviews.
I think the implication was that there would be honest reviews, and not purely negative ones.
Those just happen to come up when people are being honest.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
[quote:429167ecdb="rezo"]
I think the implication was that there would be honest reviews, and not purely negative ones.
I agree, there is a level of ambiguity in the phrase "openly rip it apart". I took it in the "by wild dogs" sense.
[quote:429167ecdb="rezo"]
Those just happen to come up when people are being honest.
Yes - quite. Which is the difference between being honest, and being constructive. One does not necessarily imply the other. It's certainly a lot more fun to be brutally honest, but it's much more helpful to maintain a level of objectiveness in a review.
[quote:0ce447dd1f="spargs"]I agree, there is a level of ambiguity in the phrase "openly rip it apart". I took it in the "by wild dogs" sense.
Actually I did mean it in the "wild dogs" sense. That could include constructive critisms. It could also include low blows based on nothing more than uninformed opinions.
The who point would be to get inside the reader's mind. How do THEY see your comic. If you draw a comic that is technically perfect (Anatomy, composition, persective, etc.), but it's just plain boring - well, then people really are doing an artist a disservice to tell them how good it is. An artist can waste years on a piece of crap comic and not really know it.
It really takes thick skin to be on the receiving end of that. But you need thick skin to be an artist in the first place.
I'll pick on one of our own "celebrities" as an example. People are viciously open about what they like and dislike about PVP. And Mr. Kurtz will usually react with his heart - tell the buggers to sod off. But then he'll turn around and start fixing what's wrong with his comic - or try to. He's been getting a lot of grief over cut and paste. And lately he's been drawing comics that don't use that as much.
At the same time, he's heard what people like about his comic, and he can keep that aspect of it.
[quote:30954ae541="spargs"]I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving.
Well, I learned the hard way that the breed of asses we're dealing with don't want the stick, they just want the carrot... lots of them... being fed to them while they rest on their laurels... preferably followed by a day of receiving blowjobs from the readers.
All in all, a wasted effort on the reviewer's part. Best to just leave these things to guys like Eric Burns, who wont write about a comic they find lacking.
I agree. Reviewing takes a lot of thought and skill. If you don't want to make people mad, you need to choose well what you review. Obviously if someone's asking for it, then I would be honest. But it's not going to do anyone any good to just seek out bad comics and lambaste them. That doesn't benefit anyone.
Talking about the failings in art is generally as worthwhile as the successes. Even if its just going around finding whatever random bad comic you can, popular or not and trashing it for sucking. The creator and other people might think you're rude or tactless and you probably would be, but if you're honest and give solid criticism there's no reason to say that no one can learn from it. Whether it develops as a sort of makeshift guide to "what not to do" for someone just starting out or gets someone to question things they may not have otherwise.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
WebComics are hot. They are a natural evolution of the printed medium, an adpatation for this new ethereal paper we call the internet.
I am a senior web programmer by trade, and I was talking to some of the junior web designers at the firm i work for.
I told them :
"We are recording the world around us for future generations wiht this new medium, just like the scribes of the ancient days. They used stone and parchment, we use electrons and binary codes, but its still the same. Future generations will view our world through the lenses we provide."
Even 'quality' can suffer, if for example the humor, or whatever your comic is about is 'there' .... and you have reached your niche market. If the writing is there, I could let the art slide a bit, and if the art is there I could let the writing slide less. Some things just reach certin people.....if someone wants to read an autobio strip, or a gaming strip - then that is what they will try and seek out. Some niches are bigger than others.
I have seen some popular strips that don't have much quality, even in the newspapers..... not every strip is for everyone no matter how good you think it is.
Hey, let's discuss webcomics in an intellectual manner
by The William G - 12/24/2005 - 04:25
So, webcomics...
Hot or not?
by Greg Carter - 12/24/2005 - 13:37
Webcomics are HOT, baby. And yet, they are as cool as the underside of the pillow. Good comics are hot no matter whether they are on the web or in print. I like both formats.
Greg Carter - Abandon: First Vampire - Online Graphic Novel
by Fabricari - 12/26/2005 - 22:34
My answer to this is purely existential. Yes, they are hot, as they are significant in my tiny bubble of a world. It seems more manegable than fleeting things like job, family, school. And for every comic that's missing or late, we have plenny off buzzing on the forums to keep us up until well past the effects of caffeine have worn off.
And as long as there's just one of us putting out a comics, they aint going away. Consider this, webcomics may have already outlived those print comic companies like Defiant, Malibu, Valiant, and Crossgen? Heh.
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
by Kiba - 12/27/2005 - 18:44
Webcomics are only hot when they are real popluar like Megatokyo.
by Greg Carter - 12/28/2005 - 00:48
Popularity means squat. Quality is hot.
Greg Carter - Abandon: First Vampire - Online Graphic Novel
by LGraf - 12/28/2005 - 08:13
[quote:956987c52e="GregC"]Popularity means squat. Quality is hot.
Then comes the next question: just what is quality?
That question can't really be answered...it always comes down to a popularity vote, i.e. lists of the best, and even those can't be seen as quality by everyone.
Just seems to me to be one cyclic question, over and over, that'll really never be truly answered. Tho it really can be debated, argued, and flamed forever and a day.
--L.G.Twilight Agency: my frustration, my insanity... http://twilightagency.com
by rezo - 12/28/2005 - 08:37
The question can be answered. People just tend to not like whatever answers are given. Sometimes because they have bad taste. Other times it is because of the opposite. Other times it is both or neither!<br><br><br>Also, I voted "not" a few days ago because there aren't enough quality webcomics.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
by Fabricari - 12/28/2005 - 10:09
[quote:b39c1eb5e8="rezo"]The question can be answered. People just tend to not like whatever answers are given. Sometimes because they have bad taste. Other times it is because of the opposite. Other times it is both or neither!<br><br><br>Also, I voted "not" a few days ago because there aren't enough quality webcomics.
I agree. Yes, quality is certainly measurable. We're just too polite to discuss it here.
Truth is, I think Mr. William G was on to something with "Honest Webcomic Reviews" even if it didn't last. We don't benefit as artists to only hear good things about our comics. Folks who don't like our stuff simply don't read, so we seldom hear honest criticism.
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
by Kiba - 12/28/2005 - 10:29
Sometime, a webcomic is high quality but never popluar only because they didn't pimp or not lucky enough.
Well...webcomic and art are subjective though. There may be an agreement but not necessary everyone have the same opinion.
by Greg Carter - 12/28/2005 - 11:11
Quality is in the eye of the beholder. A comic either works for a reader or it doesn't. How high it would be graded in an art or writing class affects that but isn't the final word. Honest effort and being able to get the point across in an entertaining manner is what matters to me. But then I love Jackson Pollock's work so what the hell do I know? See? Eye of the beholder.
Art is subjective (art in this case encompasses the whole effort). There are no absolute facts involved in describing it except for the basic physical parameters. And sometimes not even that. It is a singular experience unique to the viewer/reader. And to tie this into the big "review/criticism" debate, no single review has any more or less merit than any other. Only when someone expresses a somewhat consistent opinion of similar items do those gain any value to a person reading them. Then that reader can compare their own opinions to that of the critic and make a reasonable assumption about how they will agree with future reviews. And that's all I'm saying about that.
I have to admit, I'm really digging the Megatokyo storyline at the moment. And Fred has tightened up his art quite a bit lately. It is far and away my favorite of the "big" webcomics.
Greg Carter - Abandon: First Vampire - Online Graphic Novel
by spargs - 12/28/2005 - 11:26
[quote:c0c00bdf3e="Fabricari"]
Truth is, I think Mr. William G was on to something with "Honest Webcomic Reviews" even if it didn't last. We don't benefit as artists to only hear good things about our comics. Folks who don't like our stuff simply don't read, so we seldom hear honest criticism.
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving. Purely negative reviews are just as bad as purely positive reviews.
[url=http://www.digi-comic.com][img]http://www.digi-comic.com/images/dcLilLink.gif[/img][/url]
by Xaviar Xerexes - 12/28/2005 - 12:01
[quote:49a4e6689c="Fabricari"]
I think it'd be cool to set up some sort of "Ring-of-Fire" here. We could have artists submit their comic for critical review. And the community could openly rip it apart. No amount of critism is going to stop my compulsion from drawing, so it would only help.
I think the savage dissembly group does something very like this. Can't recall the URL right now but I think it's an email group for webcomics to get and give each other feedback. Way back in the day there was a similar effort called Hotseat.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
by Tim Demeter - 12/28/2005 - 14:30
Webcomics; totally hot.
Not in a smoking hot sex-pot blonde bombshell kinda way, but in that smartly-dressed, Lisa-Loeb-glasses-wearing, mousy-girl kinda way.
I think the latter is hotter anyway.
And yes Savage Disassembly is your one-stop shop for being totally pantsed on the internet. It's a group thing so you can join up and rip and be ripped.
Tim Demeter
does a bunch of neato stuff.
Clickwheel
GraphicSmash
Bustout Odds
by Kiba - 12/28/2005 - 14:47
[quote:ea60d65ee6="timdemeter"]Webcomics; totally hot.
Not in a smoking hot sex-pot blonde bombshell kinda way, but in that smartly-dressed, Lisa-Loeb-glasses-wearing, mousy-girl kinda way.
I think the latter is hotter anyway.
Webcomics is hotter like f-35, which is more sleathier, sexy, and totally much more dangerous than the lame old school last generation which is print comics and the boring f-16. :roll:
by rezo - 12/28/2005 - 16:16
[quote:99cbce50d2="spargs"]
I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving. Purely negative reviews are just as bad as purely positive reviews.
I think the implication was that there would be honest reviews, and not purely negative ones.
Those just happen to come up when people are being honest.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
by spargs - 12/29/2005 - 06:19
[quote:429167ecdb="rezo"]
I think the implication was that there would be honest reviews, and not purely negative ones.
I agree, there is a level of ambiguity in the phrase "openly rip it apart". I took it in the "by wild dogs" sense.
[quote:429167ecdb="rezo"]
Those just happen to come up when people are being honest.
Yes - quite. Which is the difference between being honest, and being constructive. One does not necessarily imply the other. It's certainly a lot more fun to be brutally honest, but it's much more helpful to maintain a level of objectiveness in a review.
:)
[url=http://www.digi-comic.com][img]http://www.digi-comic.com/images/dcLilLink.gif[/img][/url]
by rezo - 12/29/2005 - 08:07
honesty: YOUR COMIC SUCKS.
honesty + constructive criticism: YOUR COMIC SUCKS.
STOP SUCKING AT COMICS.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
by spargs - 12/29/2005 - 08:14
[quote:9137ad0338="rezo"]honesty: YOUR COMIC SUCKS.
honesty + constructive criticism: YOUR COMIC SUCKS.
STOP SUCKING AT COMICS.
Very good, good use of caps lock, but unfortunately you spelt everything correctly.
Peace out dude. ;)
[url=http://www.digi-comic.com][img]http://www.digi-comic.com/images/dcLilLink.gif[/img][/url]
by Fabricari - 12/29/2005 - 12:52
[quote:0ce447dd1f="spargs"]I agree, there is a level of ambiguity in the phrase "openly rip it apart". I took it in the "by wild dogs" sense.
Actually I did mean it in the "wild dogs" sense. That could include constructive critisms. It could also include low blows based on nothing more than uninformed opinions.
The who point would be to get inside the reader's mind. How do THEY see your comic. If you draw a comic that is technically perfect (Anatomy, composition, persective, etc.), but it's just plain boring - well, then people really are doing an artist a disservice to tell them how good it is. An artist can waste years on a piece of crap comic and not really know it.
It really takes thick skin to be on the receiving end of that. But you need thick skin to be an artist in the first place.
I'll pick on one of our own "celebrities" as an example. People are viciously open about what they like and dislike about PVP. And Mr. Kurtz will usually react with his heart - tell the buggers to sod off. But then he'll turn around and start fixing what's wrong with his comic - or try to. He's been getting a lot of grief over cut and paste. And lately he's been drawing comics that don't use that as much.
At the same time, he's heard what people like about his comic, and he can keep that aspect of it.
So, does this qualify as a tangent?
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
by The William G - 12/30/2005 - 03:36
[quote:30954ae541="spargs"]I disagree - carrot AND the stick, that's the only way to get a stubborn ass moving.
Well, I learned the hard way that the breed of asses we're dealing with don't want the stick, they just want the carrot... lots of them... being fed to them while they rest on their laurels... preferably followed by a day of receiving blowjobs from the readers.
All in all, a wasted effort on the reviewer's part. Best to just leave these things to guys like Eric Burns, who wont write about a comic they find lacking.
by AbbyL - 12/30/2005 - 03:38
I agree. Reviewing takes a lot of thought and skill. If you don't want to make people mad, you need to choose well what you review. Obviously if someone's asking for it, then I would be honest. But it's not going to do anyone any good to just seek out bad comics and lambaste them. That doesn't benefit anyone.
by spargs - 12/30/2005 - 06:37
Well said.
<digression>
Hey - this new Comixpedia website design is starting to come together nicely ... I like those nav buttons ...
</digression>
[url=http://www.digi-comic.com][img]http://www.digi-comic.com/images/dcLilLink.gif[/img][/url]
by rezo - 12/30/2005 - 10:13
Talking about the failings in art is generally as worthwhile as the successes. Even if its just going around finding whatever random bad comic you can, popular or not and trashing it for sucking. The creator and other people might think you're rude or tactless and you probably would be, but if you're honest and give solid criticism there's no reason to say that no one can learn from it. Whether it develops as a sort of makeshift guide to "what not to do" for someone just starting out or gets someone to question things they may not have otherwise.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
by ccocking - 02/18/2006 - 20:04
WebComics are hot. They are a natural evolution of the printed medium, an adpatation for this new ethereal paper we call the internet.
I am a senior web programmer by trade, and I was talking to some of the junior web designers at the firm i work for.
I told them :
"We are recording the world around us for future generations wiht this new medium, just like the scribes of the ancient days. They used stone and parchment, we use electrons and binary codes, but its still the same. Future generations will view our world through the lenses we provide."
I feel the same way about webcomics.
BTW, check mine out...lol
- Chris C
[url=http://www.vortexchronicles.com][img]http://vortex.cyberspaceopera.com/webcomic/bizna/vortex-chronicles-banner1.gif[/img][/url]
[URL]http://www.vortexchronicles.com/[/URL]
Dark Sci FI WebComic
new episodes every monday
by captain - 02/20/2006 - 12:30
Even 'quality' can suffer, if for example the humor, or whatever your comic is about is 'there' .... and you have reached your niche market. If the writing is there, I could let the art slide a bit, and if the art is there I could let the writing slide less. Some things just reach certin people.....if someone wants to read an autobio strip, or a gaming strip - then that is what they will try and seek out. Some niches are bigger than others.
I have seen some popular strips that don't have much quality, even in the newspapers..... not every strip is for everyone no matter how good you think it is.