Superhero Movies: the Good, the Bad & HULK SMASH PUNY HU

Superhero Movies: the Good, the Bad & HULK SMASH PUNY HU

by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/01/2006 - 12:44

So I finally saw the Hulk last night. What a mishmash of a movie. Parts of it were almost cool but the ending - the Hulk's father turns into a... bubble? Too much talking... want more HULK SMASH!

Between that and the FF movie I rented earlier in Jan - I've seen now several ways you can screw up translating a comic into a surefire action movie.

1. Turn the action into a metaphor for deep emotional conflict in a hamhanded and redundantly obvious way. Like, The Hulk movie.

2. Turn a cool villian into a corporate schmuck. How does the FF story get improved by turning Doctor Doom into a CEO? No Latvinia (or whatever madeup country he ruled)? What is the obsession with villian as CEO anyway - yes it was creative when Bryne did it with Lex Luthor in Superman but from what I can recall Bryne took it fairly serious and Luthor acted like a CEO not a comicbook bad guy. These movies have stock characters walk around for half the movie like a CEO (although not very good ones if you pay attention to their management activity) then flip out into more typical comic book bad guys.

It doesn't work.

3. Feel obligated to link the bad guy's origin to the superheroes origin, thereby mangling both origin stories in the process. Like the FF movie.

4. Do a really half-ass job of translating a comic book origin story into something remotely plausible given our current scientific knowledge of the world. Spiderman did this well - there was only the slight tweak of DNA changes replacing radiation and otherwise they were able to leave the story intact. The X-Men also worked well enough.

The FF? I think they were headed in the right direction but it was sloppy. The Hulk? Also potentially interesting but they slipped in a lot of Star Trek style scientific nonsense explanation. That's just distracting.

5. Fail to translate the visuals of the comic book into the movie in a way that works coherently. This is the toughest one really. Spiderman I think works although it's a close call with the spidey underwear. It really shouldn't work when I think about it. The X-Men works b/c they ditched the comic book costumes but kept the distinctive aspects of the characters. They even got Nightcrawler right and that's a tough one. I'm less confident they'll pull off the Beast though.

The hulk - they actually did a pretty good job with the Hulk hulking out but he's so cartoonish (green and purple!!!!) that he didn't fit with the otherwise naturalistic looking movie Ang Lee shot (although I loved his panels motiff). Lee should have gone more of a Tim Burton route on his overall visual for the movie or rethought the Hulk himself. I know it would have been blasphemy to many but a realisitic looking Hulk wouldn't be uniformly green - they could have done lots of things visually to make him more naturalistic looking. Given the movie he made that's what Ang Lee should have done (he should have also ditched the entire finale with Nolte).

The FF was also okay. They certainly did a better job of the Thing then I ever thought possible.

You know, that ends my ramble - well except to say that I think Batman Begins was really good and did a lot of the things I carped on above right.

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by RemusShepherd - 02/01/2006 - 14:24

I loved the Hulk movie. It was not an action film, it was a psychological thriller, and they should have marketed it that way. As a victim of an abusive father, the film pushed all the right buttons for me. It's my third favorite superhero film, right behind The Incredibles and Spiderman 2.

Except for the origin, the Hulk movie was also very faithful to the comic book. Banner really is that screwed up. Banner's father became the Absorbing Man, one of Hulk's most deadly enemies.

The Thing was about the only thing I liked in the FF movie. I can't point to anything really bad, it was just boring. A single superhero battle and two hours of developing uninteresting characters.

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by Tim Demeter - 02/01/2006 - 14:44

Hulk didn't do it for me either. If you want to see a comic book movie that ups the psychology Batman Begins rules the roost, I love that flick. Though I still love Spidey 2 more.

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by jdalton - 02/01/2006 - 15:47

I confess I've liked all of the recent Marvel movies. Even the ones everyone hated (like Daredevil). Yeah there were a lot of things that could have been better (Hulk's purple pants, Victor vonDoom, etc.) but they have, pretty consistently, gone for comic book-based story arcs rather than typical Hollywood movie story arcs. Elektra, for example, was not paced at all like a movie "should" be paced. It was slowed down and moody, like a Marvel comic. The characters in most of the movies were very strong and almost entirely managed to translate the bizarre look of Marvel superheros into real-life costumes.

Fantastic Four did the best it could with an odd premise. It was perhaps the weakest of the movies (though I haven't bothered to see Punisher or the latest Blade). I think The Incredibles entirely stole FF's thunder. As soon as The Incredibles came out, they should have scrapped plans for a FF movie. It was just redundant in that environment.

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by spargs - 02/02/2006 - 08:27

I didn't mind the Hulk, but yes, the pseudo-science was particularly irritating in that film. Not to mention confusing - it's not the lab accident that turns him into the Hulk but the fact his father was experimenting on himself when he was conceived by mucking around with jellyfishes and other various seafruits then he was bombarded with radiation as a small child and then later on as an adult another accident to do with genetic regrowth that didn't work properly anyway triggers the dormant jelly-genes and HULK SMASH MAKE CRAPPY STORYLINE STOP HULK'S BRAIN HURT.

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by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/02/2006 - 10:32

[quote:cfa31da5b1="spargs"]HULK SMASH MAKE CRAPPY STORYLINE STOP HULK'S BRAIN HURT.

Exactly!

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by The William G - 02/02/2006 - 13:07

I liked Hulk. It was entertaining enough, and obviously beautifully shot. The story was stupidly comicbook. However, he had a bit of apacing problem and the end lacked oomph.

Fantastic Four looked like a demo reel to show to investors to get more money: A lot of highlights, but nothing connecting them. The Thing did kick ass.

Blade 3 was bad in the exact same was Blade 2 was enjoyable

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Nitpicking

by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/02/2006 - 13:33

[quote:8d92326f2c="TWG"]I liked Hulk. It was entertaining enough, and obviously beautifully shot. The story was stupidly comicbook. However, he had a bit of apacing problem and the end lacked oomph.

I agree with that - it felt like Ang Lee wanted to shoot a story that took the underlying story seriously but couldn't quite commit to it completely - hence the overly-cartoonish looking Hulk and the ridiculous ending with the fight between Hulk and Hulk-Dad (which visually was also awful - what was that he turned into - a bubble?)

The storyline was flawed from this mismash of approaches but even if that had been resolved the script had some holes in it that really bugged me too. For starters how does Daddy-Hulk get jobs at restricted labs and just hang around town with HULK-dogs when he's a known felon (he had been in prison for 30+ years).

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by Uncle Ghastly - 02/02/2006 - 17:38

The Superhero Movie cliche I particularily dispise is the "Bag Guy learns Good Guy's Secret Identity which in turn means Bad Guy is gonna die".

As for Visuals, most of the Spiderman movie was great, but they blew it big time with the Green Goblin. He came off like a campy Power Rangers baddie what with that solid, imovable mask. Heck, I wouldn't have minded if they tweaked the Green Goblin origins a bit to have his face physically transform whenever he took on the Green Goblin role. The solid mask blew chunks.

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by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/02/2006 - 18:03

[quote:d2e41932d5="Ghastly"]As for Visuals, most of the Spiderman movie was great, but they blew it big time with the Green Goblin. He came off like a campy Power Rangers baddie what with that solid, imovable mask. Heck, I wouldn't have minded if they tweaked the Green Goblin origins a bit to have his face physically transform whenever he took on the Green Goblin role. The solid mask blew chunks.

I forgot about that. That goblin outfit was atrociously ill-conceived.

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by Tim Demeter - 02/02/2006 - 18:07

Heh, he DOES look like a power ranger.

Yeah, in retrospect I wish they'd gone the Ultimate Spidey route and had him transform into the goblin physically, but to be honest, I bet I would have complained about that too.

Doc Ock looked bad ass though.

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by Aleph - 02/02/2006 - 19:40

Ang Lee seemed to Mary Sue the Hulk a lot, the monster design even looked kind of chinese. Hulk FEEL! Hulk EMOTE! Hulk not bad, Bruce LIKE Hulk!

In many ways he was re-making Kong, it looked like. But with the added, HULK NOT ANIMAL! HULK MAN!

Bruce Banner didn't come off nearly like the tragic figure he was in the original, and Hulk just became this leaping bounding play-doh that couldn't decide how big he was or how strong or anything. It looked like the CG guys were just trying their best to frame Hulk up in whatever shots they were given, and I think that's due to Ang Lee not having worked with a CG project of this scale before.

Now, when you want to talk REALLY screwing a comic series, you gotta give a nod to Spawn *bleeeauuccchh!* and Daredevil *Look out, evil, it's Upholstered Man!* Especially Daredevil. They take the entire complicated history of Elektra and Matt and boil it down to 'I fought you, so instantly, I love you.' My husband was trapped on a plane with this movie coming back from Japan. But at least there were barf bags readily available.

He didn't subject himself to Elektra's movie. Oh god was it worse.

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by The William G - 02/03/2006 - 04:09

Spawn's main problem was the source material. ie: You cant polish a turd.

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by Aleph - 02/03/2006 - 05:26

I'm no fan of Spawn, I'm just a CG snob, and the CG on that movie was awwwwwful :( I couldn't really bring myself to pay much attention to the books/animated series, because they seemed to rely almost entirely on mood and presentation. So when you screw up the mood/presentation that badly, you screw any chance the movie had to appeal to people who actually liked it...

It just stuck out in my mind as one of those really bad comic movie experiences.

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by AbbyL - 02/04/2006 - 01:52

Well, it was made a long time ago. And I don't know how fair it is to say Hulk "Looks Chinese."

I liked The Hulk, but I appreciate that it's just not a good movie.

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by Aleph - 02/04/2006 - 03:05

I went over the Hulk with some NT friends, and you're right, I was totally mistaken in that regard: they built on the face of the actor, so the impression it gave me was entirely coincidental. That was only a superficial part of my impression it got Mary-Sue'd though (and likely an assumption I made in response to feeling that way), it was more about the extreme effort the film made to humanize the Hulk and make it something other than the beast-self Banner hated/feared/fled. Syl, who actually has met Ang Lee briefly, thinks that what I saw as over-the-top personalization of the Hulk was actually fairly typical of his personality and outlook on characters.

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by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/04/2006 - 10:15

[quote:6a21e8da98="timdemeter"]Doc Ock looked bad ass though.

Definitely. Of all the recent superhero movies I think Doc Ock is the only one that was really scary (and looked plausible). Everyone loves Spiderman but Spiderman II may be the best "Sequel" superhero movie - tough competition for that title though with the original Superman II and X-Men II.

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Spawnd?

by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/04/2006 - 10:17

[quote:622c731beb="Aleph"]I'm no fan of Spawn, I'm just a CG snob, and the CG on that movie was awwwwwful :(

I've never read Spawn or watched any of the adaptations. Is any of it any good or was it all just hype?

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by Boydegg - 02/22/2006 - 16:51

How can you all be so easy on the Hulk movie?

Spiderman 1 and 2 were both excellent.
Mystery Men was great.
Tim Burton's Batman Returns was really good.
the Incredibles was enjoyable.
The league of Extraordinary Gentlemen was decent.
Fantastic Four was ... ok.
Both X-men films were dull.
Daredevil was crap.
Batman Begins was shit.
Constantine was stinky shit.
Catwoman and Elektra were a big pile of stinky shit.

... and the Hulk was a big stile of stinky shit with dried shit crumbs sprinkled on top for decoration.

And why are the Spiderman films top of the heap? Because they're CHARACTER DRIVEN. Effects are important, yes. But effects alone just ain't enough anymore - just look at Hellboy.

Rant over. Peace out, and all that shit.

Brian

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Wha?! :)

by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/22/2006 - 17:01

[quote:f9f2f5d7ee="Boydegg"]How can you all be so easy on the Hulk movie?

Spiderman 1 and 2 were both excellent.
Mystery Men was great.

I agree with that - MM is very funny.

[quote:f9f2f5d7ee="Boydegg"]Tim Burton's Batman Returns was really good.

Not really - it was a huge mess of too many characters, plot threads that went nowhere and ultimately just kind of dull in spots.

[quote:f9f2f5d7ee="Boydegg"]the Incredibles was enjoyable.

Definitely.

[quote:f9f2f5d7ee="Boydegg"]The league of Extraordinary Gentlemen was decent.

Wha?!? C'mon, they butchered that story. That could have been a great movie but instead they choose to make Die Hard - Victorian Age.

[quote:f9f2f5d7ee="Boydegg"]Fantastic Four was ... ok.
Both X-men films were dull.
Batman Begins was shit.
Constantine was stinky shit.

Nw I'm begining to think you're just stirring up shit.... :)

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by Boydegg - 02/22/2006 - 17:36

Hi X.X.

I stoutly defend Batman Returns - for me, it was the first film to really capture a comic book feel. Plus I thought Keaton, Devito, Pffieffer and Walken were all excellent (apologies for the spellings there if they're wrong). It WAS more like watching three stories messily tangled together - but hey! I love that film.

The League .... ok it definitely could have rocked. But it was decent all the same, and had some great moments.

And although I know those opinions won't be popular, I stand by what I said...

X-men - potentially wonderful, Bryan Singer - get your coat and bog off.

Constantine - truely awful. On every level possible.

Batman Begins - ok ok ok ...I seem to be the only person in the world who thought that film was crap. My colleagues loved it, my non-comic-fan friends loved it ... even my girlfriend said it was fun. For me, it was an effort to see that dross through to the end. I know I'm fighting a losing battle even daring to say something negative about Batman Begins on a comics forum - but GOD I hated that film.

(which gives you an idea of how much I thought of the Hulk if I rated that even lower).

oh... has anyone mentioned the recent Punisher film yet? That looks so bad I don't even want to waste 2 hours of my life watching it.

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by Boydegg - 02/22/2006 - 17:47

Actually - I'm sorry.

Please disregard my last post. Here in Bangkok it's 4.45 am and I'm just being mr. Grumpy and negative.

I really should have listed the comic book films I love and left it at that. No need to go and start getting negative about other films which lots of other forum users probably enjoyed a lot.

night night

Brian

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by Xaviar Xerexes - 02/22/2006 - 23:50

[quote:2bf44850e6="Boydegg"]Actually - I'm sorry.

Please disregard my last post. Here in Bangkok it's 4.45 am and I'm just being mr. Grumpy and negative.

By Internet standards you're being formally polite! I certainly took no offense - this is kind of a fun argument actually.

I think I was disappointed in Batman Returns for some of the same reasons you liked it. Interesting actually. I did like the first Keaton one a lot.

Haven't seen Punisher (or the two Daredevil/Electras either) and probably won't. Didn't see Constantine either actually.

I loved the first half of Batman Begins - it was very un-comicbook like. I thought the 2nd half was good too although a bit less impressive.

Not sure what about the X movies bothered you. I thought it was a great visual translation of the book and was pretty respectful of the mutants vs humankind storyline (one of the best of that series from my memory of it). In the 2nd one I thought the Nightcrawler character was great - I really thought they nailed that one.

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by The William G - 02/23/2006 - 00:21

[quote:aebc8b2444="Boydegg"]How can you all be so easy on the Hulk movie?

Spiderman 1 and 2 were both excellent.
Mystery Men was great.
Tim Burton's Batman Returns was really good.
the Incredibles was enjoyable.
The league of Extraordinary Gentlemen was decent.
Fantastic Four was ... ok.
Both X-men films were dull.
Daredevil was crap.
Batman Begins was shit.
Constantine was stinky shit.
Catwoman and Elektra were a big pile of stinky shit.

... and the Hulk was a big stile of stinky shit with dried shit crumbs sprinkled on top for decoration
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
No.
Yes.
Hell no.
Yup
No.
Dunno.
Dunno.
Dunno.
Yes. Yes.
No.

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by Boydegg - 02/23/2006 - 02:49

I think the frustration over these films comes from the fact that the movie makers often have solid gold material to work with - all they have to do is take the comic and put it on the big screen.

But they always feel the need to reinvent it in some way, and you just find yourself sat in the cinema thinking 'why-o-why-o-WHY?'

Who decided that Judge Dredd should have a catchphrase like "I knew you were going to say that?"
Who came up with that Green Goblin costume and why did NOBODY in the team say "ummm ...it looks a bit rubbish"
Didn't anyone notice how all-round-poor Doctor Doom was?

etc etc etc

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