Shared universes: Still Possible?

Shared universes: Still Possible?

by Anonymous - 11/06/2003 - 06:16

This question came across after what had happened at Crossgen (financial troubles, staff quiting, that sort), and then looking back at all the comic companies in the past.

The question is about shared universes.

That's right. The one where Superman & Batman come together to fight tougher criminals, or where X-Men and Avengers fight each other.

The past shared universes have been nothing more than mere marketing gimmicks. Nowadays, any mention of those two words, "shared universes" has already repelled away audiences like a 'squito to an aerosol. Perhaps, it's the terrible lesson from the past decades that most people are not willing to learn about, like what had happened at Image & Valiant. Now, Crossgen is most likely to be the next victim unless somthing must be done.

The thing is, shared universes has a lot of potential beyond being marketing gimmicks for DC & Marvel. Here's what I see shared universes basically as; a set of singular stories that are loosely connected to one universe, and each of these stories soon climaxed together in the end for an upcoming Big Event To End All Events. Sort of like all your fave Final Fantasy characters and their mothers coming together to battle a villain nastier than Sephiroth, Sin & all other baddies combined. Another analogy is Streetfighter, where a story of each fighter is told before they come face to face with the Big Event.

Imagine this: In one story, there's one about a martial artist, another about a magical girl, & another a boy and his mecha, and so on. And they share the same universe. Five or more series for the price of big epic story. The best part would be what I called the Gathering part, where the respective characters unite to fulfill their Big Destiny; fight an uber-Baddie or whatever Big Event they must face. Even better when these heroes co-operate and work on their differences to overcome their foe. One of the potential here is having a variety of fans & readers following the story of their fave characters until the Gathering and seeing their reaction. The same can be said across any other mediums beyond comic.

I meant shared universe not as in chronological terms where a story about a generation of heroes ala Gundam or Dragonball, where one event preceeds or proceeds another, but rather something like DC but better told. Shared universes should be something beyond a mere marketing gimmick. It should be a Story That Must be Told, something like what Hideaki Anno wants to say in Evangelion, except bigger.

Thus, I'd like to leave with some questions that I wish to ask:

Are you still skeptical about shared universes?

Are shared universes still possible?

Do shared universes stories have potential as a form of storytelling?

Can they transcend themselves beyond it's predecessors to become something of a high art or high literature?

Consider the potential of shared universes, can we expect more authors to take advantage of this?

Should there be shared universe stories for webcomics?

BTW, when I meant by a shared universe, I do not mean the Archie meets the Punisher kind. That's already two unrelated universes clashing.

Thank you for your time. Hope you can reply.

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by Ronson - 11/06/2003 - 13:31

I think the only problem that comes along with a "shared universe" is a lack of a cohesive vision between the writers/artists.

What tends to happen when a universe is created as a whole from the inception of the storyline, (a la Valiant, CrossGen ... whatever) is that the writers all do their thing really well separately. But when the big crossover happens, by necessity it has to be written with one (or at most two) writer's vision.

Say you have a universe dealing With heros on Planet X, Y and Z. Maybe the writer never wrote about planet Z and when he was looking at it, he reinterpreted it to be different from what planet Z was billed as by the original writer.

That sort of thing can turn a Planet Z fan off.

I know you aren't talking about multiverse crossovers like Marvel/DC, but a great example can be found in their current Avengers/JLA crossover. For some reason, Busiek decided to make Superman EXTREMELY judgemental and unforgiving in regards to the Marvel Universe. As a Superman fan, it turns me off at least a little.

The same thing happened at Valiant. I liked X-O Manawar, but when the UNITY series started, they emphasized a part of X-O that I didn't think existed. He was cruder, and more vain. It turned me off the series, at least a little.

But there's no other way to do it. I think bringing multiple storylines together is fun, and I settle for what I can get.

The only way a single universe works perfectly is if the writer is the same all the time. Or at least the decisions for characterizations are made by the same guy. Think Alan Moore's Tom Strong, Terra Obscura and even Top 10. They have the same flavor, because the same creative mind is behind it.

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by justanothercrowd - 11/06/2003 - 14:05

Part of the fun of a shared universe is seeing different peoples takes on the same characters. Nobodys interpritation of a character or event is any more or less true unless all the creators agree. Now this can lead to trouble it can also lead to interesting discoveries. This seems to work ok with superheros because they are normally just archetypes with powers slapped on. So if a writer or artist wants to riff on the archetype they can without damaging the character. This would be harder in another genre I suppose, but still worth doing.

College Roomies pulled in a character from another comic a short while back. And that worked out well.

Most times crossovers seem to take the forms of guest strips chock full of fourth wall breaking.

http://comicollage.keenspace.com/

is an ongoing round robin comic that fits the shared universe in the vaugest sense, and is generally unintelligable as a result. There are some fun flashes of humor in it though.

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by Al Schroeder - 11/06/2003 - 15:43

Oh, I prefer shared multiverses for webcomics. For instance, http://mindmistress.keenspace.com/horrorcov.htm. So obviously, I think it's still possible...---Al

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by eldritchmonkey - 11/06/2003 - 16:35

I think the problem with printed comics having crossovers is exactly what you said. It ends up being nothing more than a marketing gimmick. I was really into comics all through middle school and then into high school. What put me off them was the big X-men crossovers of the time. The kind where the story made absolutely no sense unless you bought X-men, Uncanny X-men, X-Force, X-Calibure, blah blah blah. As a student there was no way I could afford all that just to find out what happened to everyone and there didn't seem to be an end in sight because there was another giant crossover right after. Never mind the crossover comics between publishers... Crossover series always seem to be about making an extra buck, rather than telling an interesting story making use of characters the writer wouldn't have ordinarily been able to. I can't say the same thing would apply to webcomics because most of us aren't making a dime from it.

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by kjc - 11/07/2003 - 05:04

Seems to me there are different kinds of cross-overs.

1) Completely unrelated stories brought together for a brief cross-over that has little impact on continuity
2) Stories that have referenced each other, or that are purposefully set in the same "world" that have cross-over stories on occasion
3) Separate stories created to eventually come together in one climactic event (and possibly split apart again)

In the non-comics world, there were several newsgroups that created consensual realities & people created settings & some basic rule-sets & then people wrote stories set there that could impact each other or not (alt.pub.dragons-inn, alt.pub.havens-rest, etc.).

Beyond whether you as a reader enjoys the cross-over stories, there are a metric buttload of challenges to creating them. Organizing creators to work together, not step on each other's toes, adhere to the rule-sets (magical, mutated, space-traveling, etc.), and respect each others' characters is a pain.

When done correctly, especially with a lead editor or a specific person in charge of continuity, they can work really well and be fun. It's entertaining to see other people's take on your work, and being closely edited can really help with your writing/artwork. They kinda force you outside of your little box. And the readers seem to like them as well.

But, they seem to work best when the creators can put aside their egos and work together AND when you start from a shared reality place. (Otherwise, it can be jarring for the readers if magic suddenly works or doesn't work anymore or whatenot).

Kelly J.

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by Anonymous - 11/07/2003 - 15:06

I agree that it really helps when the chief writer is the same in any form of shared universe story.

When I dared a few years back to create a 60+ cartoonist crossover story for my comic (and I can't link it, which sucks, because I'm currently rebuilding my archives due to the Great Keen Meltdown of February '03), I wrote out MOST of the story by myself. Whenever I assigned certain "sub-stories" to other creators, I always made sure to include a sample idea of what I was looking for. That way, if the creator couldn't think of anything, they could just use my idea, and if they DID think of something, it was BASED off of my idea, which kept all the story tighter.

'Course, if there's one thing I learned from the experience, though, it's that you shuld ALWAYS prepare for people flaking out on your project, no matter how reliable they may have been in the past.

The event proved to sputter some because a few key participants bailed, leaving very key parts of the main story unresolved and a big mess.

It's my plan to actually one day reconstruct all the missing parts and insert them into the event, so that the darn thing will be able to shine like it was meant to.

But again, that's just another example of the ONE writer working on it in the end.

So I dunno... crossovers of any kind, shared universes of any kind are ALWAYS a very tricky thing to play with, and should only be done when thee's a good STORY behind it, rather than just to do it for a sake of doing it (i.e., a cool gimmick).

-a damonk with the flu

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by Anonymous - 11/08/2003 - 00:41

See Frank, that's why I need you on board with my giant crossover spectacular, and since you've got sway maybe we could even get some of the big shots to join in, but who knows?

Anyhow, the whole shared universes thing has always been big with me. It just seems so right, you know? I mean a universe can't just have one exciting story being told in it, can it? I even pondered just creating an entire universe and then hiring guys to do all the different comics in that universe, where events in one story would affect all other stories in some way, and so on.
Then I realized that takes money, time, and talent, of which I am lacking.

So now what do I got? Nothing.

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by Anonymous - 11/08/2003 - 00:41

Oh right.. that was me, Joe Nadeau, by the way.

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by Anonymous - 11/25/2003 - 09:15

So how will shared universes be applied to webcomics then?

Anyway, reading thru the post, I came up with some proposals for making shared universes:

1) Shared universe should have a definition of its own. I define it as multiple narratives set in a common story universe and almost sharing the same themes, somewhat like an anthology. Each narrative are independent of each other, however, but are still loosely linked

2) Recent shared universes are mostly publisher or corporate owned. I propose that shared universes should be made by a small team, ala CLAMP, and let that team own it. A separate imprint should be made for that team, but that would be optional.

3) Shared universes can be anything you want it to be in comics. It can be a massive space opera, spanning many worlds and empires, and have different stories focused on each hero; or it can be at least set in a small town where various stories are told.

4) Shared universes should not be stuck in comic books. Other mediums can be used to tell shared universes, such as TV, video games & movies. Take TV for example, where you make a show that are separated into 4 series. Each series are loosely-linked to each other, but are independent enough to bring in new viewers, despite the advantages of reruns.

5) Shared universes should not repeat the mistakes that DC and Marvel made. Shared universes should be planned in the beginning, and rules & laws of that universe must be put out beforehand to avoid continuity problems. Also, anyone making shared universes should pick Sigil #20 and Meridian #20 as an example on how to make a crossover.

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by kjc - 11/25/2003 - 20:58

[quote:4869fadef6="Anonymous"]
1) Shared universe should have a definition of its own. I define it as multiple narratives set in a common story universe and almost sharing the same themes, somewhat like an anthology. Each narrative are independent of each other, however, but are still loosely linked

Well, you missed one bit. You can do this within one comic book by one creator. You need to imply multiple sources - comic books or just characters - created by different people.

It's tricky to word it, cuz it's not always the same people - obviously, in the big companies, the author changes but the book goes on.

But otherwise solid.

Kelly J.

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by Xaviar Xerexes - 12/05/2003 - 15:24

You know I've actually often thought that the Internet is the only place where you could do a "shared universe" like DC or Marvel does and do it right. One - you can make everything necessary to read free (or under one roof - no more "milking the reader for extra $$s). Two you can, I think, much more easily "link" between stories. Literally you can link between stories. Think about it.

Yes you lose something with multiple creators on a storyline but I don't think that has to be a downside - in such a set-up readers expect stylistic/thematic inconsistencies. The fun part is seeing different interpretations of characters, stories, etc. And of course seeing "match-ups" you wouldn't otherwise see.

If I was going to do a MT style site with superheroes it'd be a shared universe.

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by Ronson - 12/05/2003 - 16:16

Every so often I consider doing a "shared universe" idea with other people with my comic. I can think of literally hundreds of stories I'd never have time to write or draw. My comic is centered on 20+ main characters (the gods) and at least a few hundred minor characters (the mortals). Already, I've seen places where I could branch off into miniseries events and whole storylines. But I don't have the time.

The problem is, of course, that there's no way I can pay anyone for their efforts. To bring someone into something where I would have control and everyone would have to follow my guidelines would probably seem pretty oppressive fairly soon to any talented individual.

I did ask people a while back if they wanted to write/draw a short story for GoA, and I got a few nibbles, but I doubt I could ever get the level of commitment and quality that would be needed to do something like that in ernest.

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by Al Schroeder - 12/05/2003 - 20:02

But we already HAVE shared universes/realities/ or at least multiverses.
FANS has met the IT'S WALKY cast and a character from ELF LIFE.
CLAN OF THE CATS regularly meets with the cast of LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. (And has met Superman, Godzilla, and other non-webcomics characters.)
SOMETHING POSITIVE has crossed over with QUEEN OF WANDS and SCANDAL SHEET.
BRUNO has met some of the characters from SCARY-GO-ROUND and it's predecessor, whose name escapes me at the moment---and those characters have met the GOATS cast.
My own character, Mindmistress, has met the Fulcrum of KILLROY AND TINA, encountered statues of ZEBRA GIRL, glimpsed UNICORN JELLY and A GOD'S LIFE and WINGS OF CHANGE and KEVIN AND KELL, and a friend met with the PVP gang and the DIESEL SWEETIES group and LOWER PLACE, all with permission from the respective authors.
There are many other examples. Granted, there are no huge overriding "universes" (although someone had an interesting suggestion that the Big Cheese from It's Walky might be the "Fulcrum" of the It's Walky-verse) but webcomics are young.
And the best is yet to come---even in crossovers. (I note that the author of LOWER PLACE now does a delightful strip about a webcomics "extra" who wanders from strip to strip...)---Al

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Re: Shared universes: Still Possible?

by Anonymous - 12/05/2003 - 22:23

>Are you still skeptical about shared universes?

I've always thought of the obligatory intro-battle in most superhero crossovers as a metaphor for the creators' egos. I personally prefer cameos to crossovers - they're just more fun, and have less baggage.
With that said, I've seen some pretty kickass Batman/Superman stories after they got that whole "who's more hardcore" out of the system and became friends with benefits (tactically speaking, of course *cough cough*).

Of course, if one series begets another (like Buffy: TVS created Angel, He-Man created She-Ra, and Basil Flint created Felicity), it's far more plausible.

>Are shared universes still possible?

They're POSSIBLE, but you have to keep very strict enforcement (along the lines of an Corporate Editor), otherwise you get two versions of the Flash running around.
Some of the other Graphic Smashers pointed out that they can't have a shared universe with Killroy and Tina because KnT's U.S.A. has a President Ventura, which conflicts with many other stories. I'm sure when DC made Luthor the president, they had to enforce it across their DCU brands.

>Do shared universes stories have potential as a form of storytelling?

If executed well, like anything else. I'm sure Life Is Beautiful was a hard sell, too -- but it worked.

>Can they transcend themselves beyond it's predecessors to become something of a high art or high literature?

Don't forget -- The Dark Knight Returns featured a shared universe, so it's not out of the question.

>Consider the potential of shared universes, can we expect more authors to take advantage of this?

If they're doing a gag-a-day, then there's wiggle room. If they have an epic story, they're probably working hard enough keeping that going without road trips to Gotham City.

>Should there be shared universe stories for webcomics?

Not unless it's really well-planned - there's no way to jump the shark like a crossover. But webcomics aren't as heavily-driven by marketing as their dead-tree counterparts, so it all depends on how comfortable the creators are letting someone else babysit.

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by William Beckerson - 12/06/2003 - 08:09

Here's why shared universes are dumb:

Batman is walking down the street one day, he sees a bank robery in progress. As he is reaching into his bat utility belt, there is a streak of red and blue, and the robbers are lying about, bodies bent in half, and Superman is handing the stolen cash back to the bank manager. Superman then cocks his ear and says, "I hear a bus full of nuns rolling down a hill in Boisie! Great Scott! I gotta go!"

WOOOSH

As a dejected Batman is getting into his car, Superman returns and sits beside him.

"Man," Supes says, "I swear, some days I cant even go take a dump. Whassup with you Bruce...oops! I mean Batman. Sorry, accidentally looked through your mask with the ol' x-ray vision there..."

Batman is about to explain to Superman the depression he feels whenever he realizaes that he's just a normal guy with some gadgets in a world where god-like beings regularly step in to deal with mortal affairs when Superman tells him, "Just a tic, Batman." and aims his super senses towards the sky.

"GREAT SCOTT! The greatest evil the universe has ever known is coming to eat our sun! I need to go!"

Batman pipes up, "I can help."

"Please Bru... Batman. You have some bat- suneater repellant spray in you belt? Leave it to us guys who can breathe in space."

Supes zips off to the fight. Batman returns to his cave to wonder about the point of it all.

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Re: Shared universes: Still Possible?

by Al Schroeder - 12/06/2003 - 11:05

[quote:a8ae480b0f="Justin-Pie"]
Don't forget -- The Dark Knight Returns featured a shared universe, so it's not out of the question.

Not to mention SANDMAN which---Vertigo, Shmertigo---happened in the DC universe. Cain and Abel, the Three Witches, Destiny, et al were previous DC creations. Darkseid was at Morpheus' funeral. Element Girl appeared. One of the first major story arcs had Martian Manhunter and Mister Miracle appear, and Dr. Destiny appear. Gaiman even had a memorable story which featured PREZ---no mean feat.
It's not that a crossover NEED be bad. Just be a Gaiman and not shoot for something on the level of SECRET WARS or GENESIS.---Al

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