Mary Sueism is a sure sign of amateur writing. I'm sure I've been guilty of it once or twice in the distant past. But you will NEVER see those comics. I've got characters now who have similarities with my personality, or traits I wish I had (a photographic memory, for instance?), but they all have flaws and weird quirks as well- and it probably helps that I only have one character who is (like me) a white male Canadian. And he's a minor character and a total jerk. Jonathon Dalton A Mad Tea-Party Jonathon Dalton
A Mad Tea-Party

I thought I'd try and draw some attention to this thread from 2004 which features a great (and f8nny!) discussion of "mary sue-ism" in webcomics (that is putting an idealized version of yourself into your work).

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Xaviar Xerexes

Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.

Xaviar Xerexes Oh yeah... this place is called ComixTalk now.

There are a lot of self-insertions in webcomics, to be sure, but Mer's right (I seem to be saying that a lot lately... huh!), that's not the same as Mary Sue-ism. Self-insertion is very popular with beginning writers, just as Mary Sue characters are, just because it's so easy. For fanfiction, a lot of people like to daydream what it would be like to be a certain universe of their favorite book/movie/comic, so it comes naturally. Self-insertion is natural because it's likewise easy to imagine yourself and what you would do in certain situations than a seperate character. Even more experienced authors will say in interviews how certain characters are base don them, or ALL their characters in some respect, and that's taken as advice.

A lot of webcomics are early work of people not experienced in writing or doing their own comics, especially on keenspace. A lot of authors will grow out of it later on. It's something I think everyone goes through, so I don't tend to look down on it badly.

I remember once, on another message board, seeing someone bring this up as a sort of prerequisite for a successful online comic. 'Of course you've gotta put yourself in there, all the popular webcomics do it!'

God, I wanted to slap them so hard for writing that. :x :P

But I think it's true that you put a little bit of yourself into every character you write - I know it is in my experience, anyway. Corinne is without a doubt the most Mary Sue-esque of all my characters, and she's much smarter and wealthier than I could ever hope to be, but it's our negative traits where we share common ground - we're both snivelling, cowardly wimps.

My mother once told me she suspected Sylvia was my alter-ego of sorts, but we have absolutely nothing in common, as I am not pretty, athletic or overbearingly arrogant. (Well, maybe I'm just a little arrogant, now and again...) I think both she and Darryl embody the kind of qualities I wish I had, rather than the ones I do have. And as for Lowenstein... well, I guess we can both be pompous and elitist. And we're both 'crusaders' who will fight tirelessly for causes no-one else gives a damn about. :D

I've always preferred flawed characters to impossibly perfect ones, and I like to think that keeps me out of Mary Sue territory, at least by a little distance. When it comes down to it, I'm quite happy that my characters are independent entities in their own right, and not just a way to feed my ego. And if anyone else thinks otherwise... well, they're entititled to their opinion, but I know better. (grin)

Arthur is the innocent I hope I am and Merlin is the wise man I hope I am.

 

Paul Gadzikowski,

New cartoons daily

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But you just wrote a Megatokyo/Harry Potter crossover. WHAT SAY YOU?

You're entitled to your preconception of course, but not all fanfiction falls into one of these categories. None of mine, for instance.

Well, none that I wrote since 1981 anyway. And only the former category then.

On the other hand, most of the webcomics I drew before there was a web had me in them.

Paul Gadzikowski,

New cartoons daily.

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THERE was a mental image I could have done without...

By the bye, very few of my characters are Mary Sues, or are me. One of the characters in the last storyline was based on one of my sons...although a lot of details are based on years of dealing with teachers of special ed students. But I'm going to a mythological archetype a la ULYSSES, rather than basing them on myself--- although a lot less serious. Not saying it's BETTER. Just explaining. It's curious. A lot of fictional characters are based on friends of the writer---Sherlock Holmes, for instance, was based on a teacher of Doyle's...but James Bond is a Mary Sue, a sort of idealized Ian Fleming.

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Hmm... Every character in my comic has a bit of myself or another person in them. I'm a great believer in putting a bit of yourself in a character to make them live.

Does that make them Mary Sues? I don't know. I don't think so, though.

If I recall correctly, Mary Sues are hated not because of the principle of them being self-insertions, but mainly because they most stories with Mary Sues tend to be extremely dull pieces of self-glorification. (The Mary sues are just too darn toothin perfect to be human. We hates them, we do!)

Anne of Green Gables, by Lucy Maud Montgomery, is my favourite example of a 'Mary Sue' done right. You'll notice the similarities between Anne and her creator, but I defy anyone to tell me that isn't a good book.

Also, didn't someone say people should write about what they know? This might explain the mirroring of self in characters.

By the way, anyone hazy over what a 'Mary Sue' is should read these links:

http://enterprise.mathematik.uni-essen.de/

http://www.ottawa.net/aldowdall/ld/marysue.html

http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.HTM

These refer to fanfiction is general, but still very useful.

I had never heard of Mary Suism, but it reminded me very much of the female protagonist of Mulholland Drive, by David Lynch. Mary Suism taken to extremes. I don't really want to add any more to this, because I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone who hasn't seen it, but if you saw it I hope that you know what I mean.

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