Midbrow neglect
Submitted by joshl. on June 27, 2006 - 20:22
My primary observation on webcomic communities and the webcomic "press" over the years: Nobody cares about midbrows.
People will talk about the successful mass-appeal comics about games or anime. They'll also talk about the highly pretentious comics out to show the world the deep meaning they're capable of or whatever.
Start a comic meant only to have nice art and be fun to read, and odds are, you won't be seeing many news articles about you.
Yes, there are some exceptions, but GENERALLY this is the way things are.
- Array
This isn't fine art, it's a business.
by Tim Demeter - 07/03/2006 - 15:23
Or, at least it's a business if you care about being seen. And as this work is not pure art, being good isn't good enough. Selling your stuff well can be just as important as doing it well.
Tim Demeter
Reckless Life
Tim Demeter
does a bunch of neato stuff.
Clickwheel
GraphicSmash
Bustout Odds
Off topic
by DAJB - 07/03/2006 - 04:18
Can't help noticing how far off topic this thread has strayed ...!
It seems to me that the problem with "Midbrow" webcomics (insofar as this has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with content and subject matter, as defined in joshl's original post) is that those are the comics that "compete" most directly with the mainstream print market.
Well-drawn, well-written, story-led comics may be deserving of more attention but why should a blogger/review site write about those when there are hundreds of better known examples already in print?
Games-related and pretentious (self-indulgent?)comics on the web, however, will tend to get more attention from web-focused reviewers simply because they aren't available elsewhere. They have almost become part of the definition of a webcomic.
Which, I guess, brings us back to where the thread first went astray. If you've got a "Midbrow" comic and you want it get noticed ... yeah, you're probably going to have to work twice as hard on publicity as other guys.
Hmmm ... I wonder if I should add a banner to my sig?
Broken Voice Comics
Because comics are not just for kids
Broken Voice Comics
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Because comics are not just for kids
Don't Waste Time and Energy Hating
by macnut - 07/01/2006 - 06:33
Best thing for you to do is what you're doing now-working on building a quality webcomic while slowly but surely promoting it. Make up those banners, make those contacts at the webcomic blogs and ezines. Yes, it'll take you a little longer,but you will get to the same place in the end. Just give it time.
I know your frustration. I'm just starting out, and I've got virtually no readers, and little time or money to promote my work. But I'm not letting that stop me. Many of the more popular webcomics out there took years to get where they are today. I'm expecting the same for myself, and I'm willing to put in the time and effort to make it happen.
You should be too.
Creator/Writer/Artist-The Vanguard
http://thevanguardhome.comÂ
The MacNut
Creator/Writer/Artist
The Vanguard
http://thevanguardhome.com
Good Advice
by Xaviar Xerexes - 07/01/2006 - 10:04
Another reason the slow and steady approach is a good one besides setting one's expectations to a more realistic level is that for most of us we're getting better and if we put the bulk of our time into making a quality comic by the time word does spread about your comic then you'll be more like current QC then first-day QC.
I don't think people should get preoccupied with "marketing" - it's a trap especially if it cuts down on time to make a good comic. It's just that you shouldn't ignore it and expect to be "discovered" - there's too many webcomics out there to follow the "build it and they will come" strategy.Â
____
Xaviar Xerexes
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
Ya gotta make your own luck
by Tim Demeter - 06/29/2006 - 22:16
If you want to get noticed, go out and get yourself noticed. The A to B is on the individual, but don't expect acclaim to come knocking on your door --it ain't gonna happen.
Comixpedia is probably the best place for this. If you got news, post it in your Comixpedia blog. If it's got general interest, it'll get bumped ot the front page. If it doesn't, do something even cooler and try again.
Tim Demeter
Reckless Life
Tim Demeter
does a bunch of neato stuff.
Clickwheel
GraphicSmash
Bustout Odds
I hate that attitude.
by RemusShepherd - 06/30/2006 - 10:32
I don't know what it is, but it's just something about that attitude that rubs me the wrong way.
Maybe it's because there's a list of 'Creators' on the front page linking to people's blogs where they chatter about nonsense and movie reviews. So it's obvious that what you *do* doesn't matter -- to get notice, what matters is that you have a well-known name.
Maybe it's because the midbrow is, almost by definition, composed mostly of amateurs. Amateurs often don't have the time to do extra cool stuff outside of the project they're working on.
But I think what really irritates me is that this attitude that the accepted path for being noticed is to be an attention whore in every way you can, to network and pitch mercilessly in every forum and board you visit, to know so many people that the sheer weight of who you know will make what you know irrelevant. That mediocre attention whores get all the notice, while people who are quietly doing superior work are ignored.
It just rubs me the wrong way. I'm dabbling in it a little myself, but it just sickens me. I feel better purchasing advertising, where at least I'm honest about wanting it to draw people to my work, instead of pretending to befriend people on forums in the hopes they'll shill for me someday.
I know your attitude is accepted and effective. But gah, I hate it.
 ...
There's A Difference Between Promoting And Whoring Yourself...
by Xaviar Xerexes - 06/30/2006 - 18:04
[quote=RemusShepherd] But I think what really irritates me is that this attitude that the accepted path for being noticed is to be an attention whore in every way you can, to network and pitch mercilessly in every forum and board you visit, to know so many people that the sheer weight of who you know will make what you know irrelevant. That mediocre attention whores get all the notice, while people who are quietly doing superior work are ignored. [/quote]
I doubt this approach works that well - there's a big difference between being a committed and enthusiatic salemans of your own work and being an attention whore. Trust me - it's always obvious to most people after a short time.Â
If you're spending the time and effort to do quality work then you owe it to yourself to spend a little time spreading the word about it.
____
Xaviar XerexesÂ
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
Yep
by LineItemVito - 06/30/2006 - 19:37
I second Xaviar. It is very common for people to distrust marketers (and for good reason), but it is possible to market your work honestly and sincerely. If you can look yourself in the mirror and say that your work is worthy of other people seeing it, then there's nothing wrong with promoting it. People are too shy sometimes.
EddieÂ
-- Vote Vito: Line Item Vito
--
Vote Vito: Line Item Vito
Or exhausted.
by Tim Tylor - 06/30/2006 - 21:35
Or exhausted. RemusShepherd has a point:
the midbrow is, almost by definition, composed mostly of amateurs. Amateurs often don't have the time to do extra cool stuff outside of the project they're working on.
And if you're having a bad time of it with illness, bad dayjob conditions, insomnia, family troubles or combination of above, then just keeping the comic going will likely seem a major achievement in itself, and self-marketing will feel like one job too many.
Bingo.
by RemusShepherd - 07/01/2006 - 01:41
Bingo, Tim. After a year and a half doing my comic, updating twice a week (reliably!), I'm still in the process of making banners in the dozen of different sizes necessary for voting sites. Let alone learning about how to advertise, spending time getting to know people in the community, drawing fan art, etc.
Meanwhile, I watch people with zero comic experience begin their comic with t-shirts and donation links ready, and get linked by half a dozen sites including Comixpedia and Websnark (on the first day!).
It's frustrating. If I had known that to do a successful comic I would need dozens of banners pre-made and to befriend a half-dozen bloggers and reviewers in advance, I would have done all that before drawing a single panel. And it'd work better than what I'm doing now. Stupid me, I was polishing the script.
Oh, well, there's always my next comic. :)
 ...
You make it sound like talking to people is a bad thing
by WillieHewes - 07/01/2006 - 12:44
There's many advantages to trying to be part of 'the community', potential increase in traffic is only one of them. I think people know if you're only trying to befriend them in the hope they'll plug your comic, but if you honestly participate in discussions, you'll not only gain some hits (maybe), but also gain awareness of what's happening in webcomics world, things that people have tried and discarded, fresh ideas, useful criticism and genuine online friendships.
Yes, it takes a bit of your time, but you can't be working on your comic ALL of the time. Forumming and other "social promotion" is like watching TV to me; a way to half-switch off my brain and just waste some time, except far more constructive than that. I don't have time to watch TV anymore, but, who misses that anyway?
Lastly: the time you spent on your script was not wasted, I'm sure. Good material is still required for success.
Comics by a girl who likes sad things (but sometimes they are funny) - www.williehewes.co.uk
Extrovert / Introvert.
by RemusShepherd - 07/03/2006 - 12:14
Different people relax in different ways. You can relax and waste time socializing with people. Socializing with people is stressful for me, and I relax by doing quiet things *alone*.
That's the difference between an extrovert and an introvert. I'm just hoping it's not the one and only difference between someone who is successful, and someone who 'should have made it'.
But it should be said -- no, actually, it should be obvious -- that I'm making an effort to be social. :) One problem is that being social often isn't enough; you have to be social in the right way. My natural tendency to be an asshole works against me. :)
I'm thinking it's a lot easier to self-publish and just buy advertising.Â
 ...
It may be of some comfort to
by Fabricari - 07/03/2006 - 13:16
It may be of some comfort to know that advertising was far more effective than any extroverted activity I took part in since launching my webcomic.Â
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
I don't think this comment is accurate for Comixpedia
by Xaviar Xerexes - 07/01/2006 - 10:00
[quote=RemusShepherd]Meanwhile, I watch people with zero comic experience begin their comic with t-shirts and donation links ready, and get linked by half a dozen sites including Comixpedia and Websnark (on the first day!).[/quote]
I'll quibble with that in terms of Comixpedia (I suspect Websnark would say the same but they can speak for themselves). I call BS Remus. Tell me who these webcomics are that have "zero experience" that I linked to on their first day.
I've written a lot in three years so it's possible I'm forgetting some examples but let's hear about these webcomics that I'm spending time writing about just b/c they have swell banners and smoozed me up ahead of time.
As far as the general thread here no one is saying do crappy work and do promotional stuff instead. But if you don't tell anyone about the comic you've worked hard on to make a quality comic don't be shocked if it's not discovered for some time. There's a lot of work out there, much of it interesting in at least some fashion. You may get discovered and linked with no effort on your own part but you may not.
____
Xaviar Xerexes
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
Midlist is another term for socially inept.
by RemusShepherd - 07/02/2006 - 19:12
The 'first day' link was at Websnark for Home on the Range, a comic written by someone with no previous comic expertise -- apparently no previous fiction writing expertise of any kind. Ferret is a blogger, and he expertly leveraged that high visibility into instant success in a completely unrelated field. Meanwhile because he's so prolific a blogger he usually has 2-3 links in the Creators list here. (How does one get one's blog on that list, by the way? Is it connected to the Library, which is broken and not accepting new entries?)
But I've harped on Ferret before, and I don't want to reignite that discussion. It's just that people riding popularity to success is one of my trigger buttons. :) And it happens fairly often.I'm not upset that socializing has to be done, and I'm not saying that pitching and networking is bad. I'm just upset that it is consistently more important than actual talent. And, working back to the topic, it's my opinion that a lot of the midlist is composed of people with toplist-quality talent, but who never got the social connections and lucky breaks that the toplist people have.
 ...
Ask Websnark
by Xaviar Xerexes - 07/02/2006 - 20:29
[quote=RemusShepherd]The 'first day' link was at Websnark for Home on the Range, a comic written by someone with no previous comic expertise -- apparently no previous fiction writing expertise of any kind. Ferret is a blogger, and he expertly leveraged that high visibility into instant success in a completely unrelated field. Meanwhile because he's so prolific a blogger he usually has 2-3 links in the Creators list here. (How does one get one's blog on that list, by the way? Is it connected to the Library, which is broken and not accepting new entries?)[/quote]
Well you'll have to ask Websnark why he linked to Home on the Strange - I saw it from him though and while it has it's flaws it's a sometimes very funny strip. If it wasn't a good strip I'm not sure what the link from Websnark would have been worth ultimately...
The creators/webcomics/news links on the left are a bit of an experiment - I asked for people to tell me suggestions but didn't get much of a response so to date they reflect things from my bloglines account mostly. It's not in anyway connected to the library which is not only not accepting new accounts but is going to be phased out in favor of the Encyclopedia/Wiki. The library was too much administrative work behind the scenes whereas the wiki allows for contributions without me being a bottleneck. (I'm not talking about the toplist though which I'm hoping to port to a better script later this summer after I get my server situation settled again.)
____
Xaviar Xerexes
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
"If it wasn't a good strip
by rezo - 07/02/2006 - 21:08
"If it wasn't a good strip I'm not sure what the link from Websnark would have been worth ultimately..."
More than no link is what!
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
True but...
by Xaviar Xerexes - 07/02/2006 - 23:58
If the strip is no good people are not going to go back. Yes it's great to get a huge wave of people checking out your webcomic but it sort of has to be... good. Otherwise it's a one-day deal and none of those people ever come back.
Which ultimately takes us full circle here. Never shortchange making the best webcomic you can to do "marketing" or whatnot. But once you've made that best webcomic then yeah spend a little time telling the world about it so that someone else gets to read your masterpiece besides your immediate family.Â
____
Xaviar Xerexes
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Gnaw.
I run this place! Tip the piano player on the way out.
It depends. It's a nice
by rezo - 07/03/2006 - 01:32
It depends. It's a nice general statement to make: "it has to be good", but it's incredibly vague. While we're making judgements of whether things are good or not, make a list of musicians, movies, artists, video games, comic books,artists etc which you consider to not be "good". How many of them have achieved any success(financially, developing a following, etc). For most people that list should include quite a few. Those can exist in webcomics as well. If your standard for "good" is independent of popular opinion, that is. If it isn't I don't see much point in using the word, honestly.
But if good is defined as "something people are interested in reading", then the claim "no one would be interested in reading it if it wasn't something they were interested in reading" would be a bit of a waste.Â
 Not saying that anything can find its way to being a hit with a random plug from a kinda popular site, just that I'd be surprised to see a comic that had a few hundred/thousand people look at it after it was plugged gain no new readers. Even if the comic isn't very good.Â
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
Yup, you should have been
by rezo - 07/01/2006 - 03:20
Yup, you should have been spending time building your contacts while you were polishing your scripts. Unless you have a decent marketing budget word about your comic will mostly be spread by other people and no one will fault you for trying to get their attention.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>
The beauty of being exceptional
by The William G - 06/28/2006 - 00:42
That's the beauty of being exceptional. Exceptionally bad, exceptionally good, exceptionally different, exceptionally focused on one group... it gets noticed immediately, even if people cant tell if its exceptionally good or bad. Decent, workman-like stuff doesn't get appreciated until it's too late.
But on the upside: history tends to take a dim view of "exceptional" creations unless they're exceptionally good.
HERE'S WHERE I GET ARCANE.
by joshl. - 06/28/2006 - 19:30
The problem here is that "midbrow" doesn't mean "average", and a lot of you seem to be interpereting it that way. You can have an exceptionally well-drawn and well-written comic without it being highbrow FINE ART. Also, you can be unique and constantly trying new things, and still be middle-brow.
And I think that may be what the problem is, really. A lot of people in the community have trouble making this distinction in general. Comics can be good just by being GOOD.
Of course, I could be full of it, and as Rezo said, there's more attention to these comics going on than I think. But I doubt it.
 In any case, I'm not expecting this to change anytime soon, if ever.
...or unexceptional.
by RemusShepherd - 06/28/2006 - 10:01
Or as David Letterman is fond of saying,"Be good, be bad -- just don't be boring."
 ...
I don't think it's as simple
by Scott Story - 06/27/2006 - 22:50
I don't think it's as simple as that. Who's to say what midbrow is, really? When you get down to it, if any of us really knew what would catch the reading public's attention, we would do it in our strips. Is it a question of timeliness, content, format? I wish there was a simple formula, but I don't think there is.
http://johnnysaturn.com | http://collectiveofhereoes.net
Right. If it was so simple
by Fabricari - 06/27/2006 - 22:59
Right. If it was so simple it wouldn't be worth reading. Midbrow equates to "boring" much of the time. You have to take a chance in one way or another if you want to reach out and grab your audiance by the scruff of the neck.
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
Steve "Fabricari" Harrison
I think they get the most
by rezo - 06/27/2006 - 22:12
I think they get the most attention actually. There are a lot more of them than there are wildly popular or very strange comics.
Browse Comixpedia's monthly articles and reviews and the like and take a count of how many mass appeal anime-gaming or pretentious comics are covered versus the middling kinda moderately well drawn/written comics.
 Maybe you are right and generally they are ignored, but for now I am accusing you of getting your opinions from a rare case of interweb madness.
<a xhref="http://www.kiwisbybeat.com" target=blank>Kiwis by beat!</a>